Friday, May 05, 2006

whose side am i on anyway?


Many of you responded to my previous post with the same thoughts that I had when I first heard of the Hot Coffee mod for GTA, "Why should the game rating be changed because a third-party hack changed the game content? That's crap! Don't blame the modders!"

I totally agree with you 100%. In fact, I do not agree that a game's rating should change even if the game has shipped with a massive stack of hidden porn in it that the player would never see because the game has no code to show it in any form. To view the pornstack you would have to run a third-party mod which to me is a bit like voiding your warranty.

So I'm saying that I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE ESRB's RATING CHANGE for any game where a third-party mod alters the original presentation of the game. You run a mod, you throw the rating out the window. Simple, done.

BUT. The sad reality is that the ESRB is actually changing game ratings based on what third-party mods do to the game. I think this is superdumb but what it all comes down to is developers and publishers are getting jacked because of it. I think it's wrong but it's happening. So my previous post mainly dealt with the outcome of the current scenario we're in where the ESRB has the power to go back and re-rate games based on future findings which are logically ridiculous. IF THE GAME DIDN'T SHIP WITH VIEWABLE PORN THEN THE RATING SHOULD REMAIN - no matter what modders come up with and no matter what content is hidden in the game's data files already.

Think about it: when you run a mod you don't know if it's actually inserting those nude graphics files into your game or just unlocking them. WHO CARES? The net effect is the same - you'd STILL run that mod to get the 1337-7175 to show up whether they were provided with the mod or just unlocked in your game. YOU RAN THE MOD! After that point, the rating is worthless. That doesn't mean it should change.

But the rating IS changing post-release and that's the problem. If the ESRB doesn't change its policies then the result will be developers locking their content. I don't want to see that happen and neither does anyone else. Except maybe the ESRB.

77 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Many of you responded to my previous post with the same thoughts that I had when I first heard of the Hot Coffee mod for GTA, "Why should the game rating be changed because a third-party hack changed the game content?

The offensive content was on the discs. This content was not submited during the clasification process. Rockstar games fucked up.

12:54 PM

 
Anonymous PurpleChair said...

I totally agree that it's stupid for ratings to be based on inaccessible content, but surely it could be avoided by making sure you don't have any "mature" content stashed away in unused files?

If they'd REMOVED their unwanted code instead of just cutting its links with the rest of the game, everyone would have been happy.

It's a bit ridiculous that the ESRB should make it their job to keep everyone's code efficient, but there you go.

1:45 PM

 
Anonymous John said...

I understand your frustration with modders but I think it would have been much more productive to create a post scolding the ESRB rather than modders in general. The ESRB should really be ashamed of themselves; because they didn’t stand up for Take Two with Hot Coffee they have set a terrible precedent. Yes it was irresponsible for modders to create this topless mod for Oblivion, but it's utterly ridiculous that Oblivion is getting rerated for it.

I used to stand up for the ESRB when it was criticized, now I am starting to wonder if a new rating organization wouldn't be a bad thing.

3:05 PM

 
Blogger El Diablo De Verde said...

While I'm glad for the clarification, John, I hope that you will direct your future criticisms against the ESRB and not the modding/development community for not conforming to unreasonable and inconsistent standards. Sure, this is the reality today but the fact is, the reality needs to change, and you have a loud enough voice to be instrumental in this if you care enough.

4:23 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're a faggot who's mad because he couldn't make it into the industry.GTFO!

4:25 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from ESRB to John:
- you are the next!

ESRB next bullshits:
doom is satanorgasmatic.
zelda is orgasmatic.
mario is zoofilia with lizards.
keen is phedofilia.
tom hall and keen over.
half-life is pure lsd.
E3 only for adults (50+)
japanese and animes shows bissexual characters, no more.
do not sleep in neverland.
superman cloths shows a huge ass, no more.

and !@#$ the control!

4:36 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Romero work for the ESRB nooOOooO!!!!

4:42 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

I think this is unacceptable. Why does Oblivion cop this?
(Apart from being (I honestly believe) the best game since Doom)
The Sims...
Which was like ultra mega hit for about 3 years in a row, 3 years ago. There were SO many nude patches for that...
I didn't see the Sims getting re-rated and losing out on their biggest fanbase - kids.

This is shameful. This is about as ludicrous as pulling a DVD player off shelves because you can whack a child porn DVD into it.
Regardless of if the content is there or not. It can't be viewed with the shipped product. And that is what the ESRB should be rating it on.

I could think of a hundred games that have the potential to add nude skins... Should they all be rerated to the content that people could potentially add to the game?

It will hurt the game companies either way. If they lock their content to comply with the ESRB lower ratings they will most probably lose sales, and if they don't (leave content free to modding) they will cut out younger kids from legally playing it...

Keep us posted, John. =(

5:09 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:09 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

And on another note: Those Doom 'XXX' WADs come to mind.

The ESRB will have to go through a huge back catalogue of games that developers graciously added the ability for the fans to edit.

If this after shipping re-rating happens more and more, what games WILL kids be able to play? =S

Only cartridge or console games? Which in the latest systems can be all but modified anyway...

5:13 PM

 
Blogger Textual Harassment said...

While I don't think the possibility of nude boobs deserves an M rating (ESRB also cited "more detailed depictions of blood and gore than were considered in the original rating" as a reason to change the rating), I can't agree with your argument here.

How does one define viewable? If said stack of porn is a bunch of .jpgs on the CD, certainly you would expect your average teen to be able to find that. What if it's in a proprietary archive format(e.g. a .wad)? I don't think it makes a difference. If you don't provide a tool to view the content, someone will create one. Unless the content is encrypted without hope of it ever being opened, I have to consider it part of the product. Hackers have shown us time and time again that no content is inaccessible.

Also I can't agree that modding "voids the warranty" on a PC game. Is flipping one bit in a save file a mod? What about renaming a file? The reality is that your game is not always going to be experienced exactly as you designed it. It's the nature of the medium and for the ESRB, the most reliable measure of what you are selling is "what content is on the disc".

5:29 PM

 
Anonymous YARRR! said...

Didn't the "nude" patch only allow you to see what amounts to the chest of a mannequin? Those are viewable at pretty much any mall throughout the country.

It's messed up.

8:24 PM

 
Anonymous Rial Juan said...

Sorry John, but as a software professional myself, I have to say I disagree with you. The guys at Rockstar and the guys at Bethesda have put these files in there all by themselves, for their own amusement or whatever reasons they must have had. They removed some links between the game and the mature content, but left the content on the discs that are sold in stores around the world, and what's worse: they made sure the content is easy to discover and easy to unlock. If you coders, artists and level designers want to be taken seriously as mature professionals, it's you who should stop fooling around like little kids, and take some goddamn responsibility for your own actions.

I see this kind of childish behaviour around me all the time, people leaving "risky" content (whether it be artwork, code paths, or just comments) in production code because of the perverse joy of knowing it's in there, right under everyone's noses, yet nobody sees it. It's funny and exciting as hell too, really... That is... untill the risky content is discovered and the culprit found out. Then the fun-o-meter spins down faster than the altimeter attached to a tungsten rod dropped off by an orbiting sattellite. Leaves about the same size crater on the jackass's carreer too...

So stop blaming the ESRB for doing their job, and take your own jobs a little more serious. And stop blaming the modding scene for doing exactly what you wanted them to do: discover and unlock your easily discoverable "OMG, this is TEH FUNNY!!!" questionable content. Two words, pal: grow... up...

Now I don't give a rat's ass about mature content in games. I'm not pro, I'm not con, I just think there's better porn to be found than some stupid hot-coffee mod or some silly topless oblivion mod. However, fact is, some parents do care. That's why they rely on the ESRB to inform them about what they're buying. And I realise this is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start, but this post is not about parents not knowing how to properly raise their kids, it's about game professionals who can't seem to grow up and take responsibility when they slip up. Instead of working with the system, and making sure your games get the proper rating, (the rating you want, the rating your publisher wants), you leave this kind of crap in, knowing that someone in "the scene" will find it within the week. Now seriously, what the hell are you thinking???

Whereas if you'd just left the nude content out, the worse that could happen is that someone makes new models/skins for your game with objectionable content in it. This will not trigger an ESRB re-rating of the game, since the content is completely third party and was never part of the original material to which the rating applies.

Oh, and while you're at it, never EVER throw that kind of content in the main trunk of the source repository; use a soddin' branch! I can understand the need to fool around on the job every now and then, but keep those antics OUT OF the material that goes off for gold mastering. It shoult not be removed from the compiled binaries and artwork, it should never ever have been in there in the first place.

And to the poster comparing this to pulling DVD players off the shelves because you can play porn on it... No, it's more like putting a warning sticker on the box because the DVD player comes with a builtin harddisk with a porn movie on it, which starts playing automatically if you type in the right code when you power the device up. The code being '12345'.

8:50 PM

 
Anonymous Eyeball88 said...

I'm sure this has been covered, but you were barking up the wrong tree with your previous post, John. You made an entirely false claim and blamed it on the modders, and the official response from the ESRB completely contradicts that.

The ESRB also verified that the code in the PC version of the game contained a locked-out topless female character model that, though programmed to be inaccessible, could be unlocked through the use of a third party tool. The skin associated with this content was found to exist in a fully rendered form on the game disc, and to require only a minor modification to a filename in the code of the PC version to access (the Xbox 360™ version of the game cannot be modified to unlock the skin).

Now, I'm sure all of us modders would very much appreciate it if you retracted the following:

Ok, so the story is that there was no nude content in the game's data but some modder added it with a utility.

8:55 PM

 
Anonymous Kugyou said...

alastair - You've gone past blurring the line and gone straight to a wonderfully oblivious slippery slope argument. This issue is not about fans modding games, or creating content for games. This is about companies shipping content in games that shouldn't be there. In the case of Hot Coffee, it was accessible just by flipping a couple values in the executable. In Oblivion, it was just flipping a few values in a mesh file to de-weld the bra from the female chest mesh. To use your (and John's) argument that normally-inaccessible content shouldn't affect the rating of a game, that gives a developer carte blanche to chuck in anything they want without fear of repercussion.

To use my own slippery slope argument, why don't we just stick some porno in one of the compressed files? It's not normally accessible content, right? So by that logic, it's "OK" and shouldn't affect the game's rating at all.

9:34 PM

 
Anonymous Felipe Bica said...

YEAH! YES!! I LIVE A SICK BARTARD LIFE LIKE YOU! JOIN ME AND DESTROY EARTH NOW!!
sorry, i got emotional again.
BUT PLEASE ROMERO, if you saw Xuxa doing that poor boy in her secret porn movie, i'm not guilt, this does not justify to ignore my point, that a "Dai Katana", is a religious type of weapon, is a sword that makes you feel stronger, makes you travel in time, makes you feel so great to kill everyone, or makes you kill yourself... like some kind of drugs.. OR would be this kind of ideological games, better with High Dynamic Rendering? don't you think about that? FOOL, or are waiting to hear it from somebody that reads your blog shits? or maybe you can't buy the royalties for that? you bastard, you are like all americans, IDIOTS. and please. you don't need to be anonimous, i do not envy your luxury, but just say, by the right form: "vai te fuder, seu merda" - CLASSICAL PHRASE! - and if you are real angry, just say that you will not buy brasilian products anyomore.

HEHEHE, i think you are using your own drugs, cool, good luck for me.

Don't worry, i will not come back, this is waste time, to read your opinion.

10:55 PM

 
Anonymous RTF said...

The sad reality is that the ESRB is actually changing game ratings based on what third-party mods do to the game. I think this is superdumb but what it all comes down to is developers and publishers are getting jacked because of it. I think it's wrong but it's happening.

Now it's the ESRB versus the videogame industry?

For those of you unfamiliar with the ESRB, they are the videogame industry. It's you people attempting to prove you can handle your own ratings so the government doesn't have to pull a Hays Code/MPAA deal.

I have to agree with the above. It's the responsibility of coders and publishers to make sure the stuff on the disc is what it says on the label, rating and all. If you put tits on a graphic file, locked away or not, the rating on the cover should indicate tits simply because the very nature of computer software negates all attempts at "locking" or "encryption." Any such measures are temporary, and will only serve to motivate some people to break through to see what's so worth hiding from the people who buy the disc with that code. Nothing stays "locked" if enough people put effort into unlocking it.

Hot Coffee was Rockstars fault. Oblivion's tits are Bethesda's fault. The ESRB is just doing their damn job trying to protect its own industry from overzealous government censorship, the modders are just pursuing their hobby and tailoring their own gaming experiences, and neither can be blamed for the game creators' aggravation any more than a criminal in jail can blame the cops who arrested him for his predicament.

11:31 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

I don't know anything about editing Oblivion or using TES but it's more than a few values. Its 125kb.
But where can the line be drawn? I guess my DVD analogy was a BIT off. But not to the extent you are making out, kugyou. But aside from that - I still think the games should be rated as they are shipped. As is. No off shelf modifications. It's like uhh.. - more analogies - ingredients to make bombs. Theres potential within anything to go beyond what is deemed the correct representation of whatever is in question.

To access this mod (and to those wondering, yes it's full blown hardcore naked BREASTS!) one has to get on the net. And there would probably be something more offensive in an ad banner on the site the mod is being downloaded from... oblivionsource - not really, but to illustrate my point.

The off the shelf product should NOT be getting re-rated!
Why not just make the sites you can download it from more secure?

Kids arent supposed to be able to have free reign on the internet from a parents point of view...
These kids could be just as easily looking up pictures of dead bodies or what not.

(Wow I'm getting off-topic...)

Wouldn't it be in everybody's best interests to just have a disclaimer or the Under 18/Over 18 buttons on the download sites?

The game should be rated how it is intended to be played - how it is shipped. Not how it can be modified.

I don't think I am turning this into a slippery slope argument. You can download a <125kb patch to make the Sims nude as you can download one for Oblivion. The end result is the same regardless of if some of the code was there in the first place. Anyone can agree even if the code wasn't in there in the first place, someone would have eventually made some breasts for the game anyway. Which would have been just as easy to download and patch.

RTF - I agree what you are saying about not blaming the modders. I think the man responsible for this intended well. Sadly it went (VERY) awry.
BUT this wasn't an attempt by Bethesda to foul the minds of underaged children. It seemed to be an oversight more than anything. I don't know the exact scenario but I assume Hot Coffee was a bit more sly.


kugyou:
"why don't we just stick some porno in one of the compressed files? It's not normally accessible content, right? So by that logic, it's "OK" and shouldn't affect the game's rating at all."

Why don't we open up the readme file and rearrange the letters in an offensive order?

same train of thought. just.. a bit weighted =P

Can someone clarify. The ESRB is to put a rating on a game as it is shipped. NOT all possible incarnations of it thereafter?

12:14 AM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

rial juan: "Whereas if you'd just left the nude content out, the worse that could happen is that someone makes new models/skins for your game with objectionable content in it. This will not trigger an ESRB re-rating of the game, since the content is completely third party and was never part of the original material to which the rating applies."

By providing the ability to edit, that is already making the developers partly responsible for what modders do with it... (With that logic) (And with that logic, every editable game in history should be rated as harshly)

Bethesda can't be held responsible for what people do with their product (the product that was released...the one with no nudity in it)

12:25 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just posted 10 minutes ago on the Oblivion thread. (not live as I type)

I agree with you, but I also understood that you are on the gamers / developers side. (That was automatically assumed from our discussions in the past).

Gadget

2:01 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stop bashing ESRB. They are doing their best to help our industry and we need more people to support them instead of bashing them.

Because they took a pro-active approach and re-rated this game, they probably save Bethesda a ton of money and prevent a lot of politicians and lawyers like Jack Thompson more ammo to pass laws to regulate the gaming industy.

Pre-existing nude content is cause for a game to be rated Mature. Say I'm a developer that works for a website selling stuff. If I hid sexuel content on our website but I blocked it from casual people who surf our site, what do you think will happen?

Some hacker will break into my site, expose all the sexual content, post it on a website somewhere and 12 years old Miss Betty Sue next door will read it, follow the instructions, hack into my site, see the sexual content, tells her parent...

Betty Sue's parent will sue, I'll go to court and say, "Well, I didn't INTEND for people to crack my site and find it."

Hah, the prosecutor would snicker and start dreaming of how he will spend the millions of dollars that we will be sending to him and poor Betty Sue.

On the other hand, if the content was never there but a hacker broke into our site and added the sexual content, it would be a totally different story, now would it?

ESRB is right on this one and is doing their best to protect the interest of gamers everywhere, they deserve our support instead of the contempt I am seeing here. Without ESRB, politicians would have created their own Rating and Review board a long time ago and then gamers everywhere could kiss their violent games goodbye.

2:02 AM

 
Anonymous Korenaar said...

Dear Romero, i have the suspect that this story scientifically wants the developers to lock their code...I wouldn't be surprised to know that many people at the ESRB are involved in someway with Microsoft, and if i think to Palladium and TC-projects it all seems clear to me.

5:10 AM

 
Anonymous +Count Leoric+ said...

I'll see that only the media pushing this all thing neceserry. The ESRB allied with that dumb m******er video-game crusader. Why the industry needs this fascism against video games. And do not blame modders. They just using their own copy of the game, and creating modifications for it to make it more enjoyable.

(OFFTOPIC Oh and the beta patch have a makes a dumb script error in bruma mages' guild recommendation OFFTOPIC)

5:56 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally, I think that the BBFC in the UK was the most reasonable in all this. Did they recall or re-rate the game? No! They came down firmly on Bethesda's side. Bethesda are no more responsible for what a modder does to their game after release than Pixar are responsible if some DVD pirate places a scene of pornography in Toy Story and then distributes it. The fact that we're even having to have this conversation is confirmation that the world of politics has gone completely wacko!

6:21 AM

 
Anonymous JT Cook said...

This is stupid. I wonder if the same thing would happen if someone created a hack for an educational game that contains nudity, would that also get a rating change?

9:14 AM

 
Blogger dzjepp said...

Re-rating games is absurd. If you're going to do it, then go after The Sims too, with it's 12525 nude patches. Of course they won't, since ea has a big stake in the games industry overall including the ratings board. They would be pretty pissed off if their top rated pc franchise was to be re-rated as mature. I hate this fact that the ratings board won't go after ea simply because they have such a wide reach.

10:18 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This isn't a problem with a modder adding nude content to the game. This is a problem because the code is already in the game, and wasn't disclosed to the ESRB. Modders having nothing to do with this change, other than the fact that it was a modder that exposed this hidden code.

Think about it for a minute. Any gaming company could create a hard-core porno, but 'lock it away' so that you needed a code or a 3rd party tool to unlock it. Just because it's not accessible through normal means of gameplay doesn't mean that the company that put it there shouldn't be held accountable.

In the case of The Sims, there was no original nude art in the original programming. Therefore they can't be held accountable for what a 3rd party does with their game.

Also, the ammount of violence in the game was greater than what was disclosed to the ESRB. These are the reasons for it being changed after the fact. Would you really want the release of games delayed by a month or so so that the ESRB can fully explore every detail of the game just to put they're rating on it? This happens all the time with movies, although it usually happens while they are still in theaters.

Personally, I think teens are mature enough to deal with boobs and blood and I don't understand why they feel this is necessary to give Oblivion a mature rating, even if boobs were available without 3rd party mods to unlock them. While I don't agree with it in this particular case, I understand why they did it.

The real truth is, people are making a much bigger deal of this than it really is. Any gamer over the age of 18 doesn't care about ratings. The ESRB is just the gaming industry's way of dealing with bitchy mom's that spend more time worrying about what their kids may be exposed to, rather than do real parrenting and teach their kids about these issues.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with modders, and the rating was NOT CHANGED BECAUSE OF MODDERS. It was changed because the ESRB discovered that Bethesda didn't fully disclose the extent of violence in the game and that nude boobs were coded into the game.

10:27 AM

 
Anonymous quake3bits said...

Apparently, all 'old' stock simply has a sticker placed over it as it's not a full product recall.

Any new material that's printed will then have the rerated 'M' badge and in thory sit on the shelves alongside the 'original' (ne. collectors edition!).

10:28 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hey felipe bica...

cai fora meu, vc não ta com nada! se não tem algo de útil para falar aqui, some.

vai fazer o seu importante dia a dia e foda-se, vai torrar o saco em IRC comprar briga com gringo em outras bandas seu mala.

sorry, but some shitpeople happens.

11:42 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Politician Leland Yee On Oblivion Re-rating

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/politics/index.php

11:44 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps I'm being naive, but....

Couldn't this issue be solved rather easily if in the EULA there was a clause that said the developers are not liable for content accessed or added by mods? That the user is agreeing to play the game as it is, and that mods are not covered by the EULA?

It would be like how opening the box and mucking about with the insides voids the product's warranty, so you no longer have the ability to call tech support if something goes wrong.

Does this make any sense?

6:20 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

Yeah I know exactly what you mean 'anonymous'. The game SHOULD be rated on what the game IS (at the time of rating) not what it can be with user modifications after it's purchased.

12:08 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yep.

The nude models were IN THE BETHESDA CD.

With a NUDE model here!!-like name.

Bethesda screwed up.

Stop blaming modders.

3:17 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

Stop blaming modders?
Without modders would anyone be able to see topless girls in Oblivion? No.

ie. It is due to the modders.

But I'm not blaming the modders. I think the ESRB is handling this the wrong way.

3:29 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

I'll correct myself to what I meant:

"But I'm not blaming the modders. I think the ESRB is handling this the wrong way."

Should have been 'I'm not pinning the scenario and repercussions on the modders'

7:28 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I agree this crap should not of been on the CDs in the first place. The modders didn't make this content, they simply accessed it. Now if they'd gone in and placed something in there that wasn't there in the first place I'd agree with all this, but they didn't. Rockstar and Bethesda shipped it, Rockstar and Bethesda should own it. Sure you couldn't access it directly, but If I ship a couch with a bunch of porn hidden inside each couch and don't tell anyone, there's still a bunch of porn sitting in a couch that should not be there. If someone then comes along and says "hey, everyone with one of these couches, there's a bunch of hardcore porn hidden under the left cushion, then I would say that someone should tell people that there is an exploit that may be performed on the couch that will allow you to look at porn... like my analogy? yeah, it's not the best, but the point is still valid...

--satori--

6:50 AM

 
Anonymous m3g4tr0n said...

This reminds me of Warren Spector's rant about sexism in the game industry at the GDC a few years back. It's all bullshit though. You can't sit there and condemn others when you've pulled the same shit. It's the fossils of the game industry that are responsible for what's happening today.

10:10 AM

 
Blogger Ira said...

I'm not sure this is going to matter for long. Developers are moving toward digital distribution. Once that happens, the ESRB's job (to rate the games so as to avoid congressional inteference) will disappear. Once the developers are no longer worried about retailers not stocking the games or not selling the games to their target audiences, the downside of congressional interference goes away, and the ESRB becomes useless.

10:31 AM

 
Anonymous Jon Rose said...

The ESRB was formed in cowardly response to that dipshit Lieberman trying to throw his weight around. Capitulation to the ESRB at this point is the cowardly response to the dipshit ESRB board throwing ITS weight around. Who's in charge here?

The problem with this is the same major problem that plagues the rest of the videogame industry: idiots are running things and the developers themselves are too pussy to do anything about it. Who is this good for? Not devs, and it SURE AS FUCK isn't good for the consumer.

The ESRB has obviously gone amok. Push back, get a collar on them, and make it clear who they work for and what they're there to do, or shut up. That's all there is to it. Because if you don't, the industry is ulitmately going to take itself down the same way every other media industry is. And we're going to step over your corpses and make new games/movies/music WITHOUT your bullshit.

3:39 PM

 
Blogger Alastair said...

anonymous: I know what you mean with your analogy but...I dunno I totally disagree how everyone is saying 'the content is there' it simply isn't!There is no 'explicit' - topless female (although I have to admit I saw quite a few naked male chests in Oblivion even before I applied the topless patch... I can't see how the ESRB missed all these naked male nipples being shoved at impressionable young gamers...) - viewable in the game before you apply a mod to this off the shelf game...

Regardless of if the skin is already there or not! Think of other games. It's just as easy to get a character naked in Morrowind! All you have to do is download another readily available patch. I don't see why this patch is any different. Adding or unlocking something ina game both have the same end result. And are both modifying the games in ways the developer did not intend.

4:55 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alastair, I'm not referring to a topless skin, I'm referring to the sex level, it was built into the game.

-satori-

4:18 AM

 
Blogger sshrugg said...

I originally agreed with the Rockstar thing. Rockstar seems to be a company that just wants to stir shit up. It's part of their image, it's part of the reason they sell. People buy the games to get some super fucked up controversial shit...not the best game ever. (Not to say they haven't made cool games.)

The thing is, I thought they did drop the ball on this issue. Whether or not the content needs to be unlocked doesn't change the fact that it is on the disc, and is therefore part of the product you are buying. Lots of people would say that this means it should be factored into the rating.

However, DVD ratings aren't changed from the movies due to the extra content included (deleted scenes, commentaries). Sometimes these features are pretty raunchy, but the only way DVD ratings are changed is if the movie itself is different. I kinda think this DVD secret feature thing is comprable to dormant data in a program, so now I'm torn on the issue.

Max Payne 2 would have had a stricter rating though, if the camera angles in Mona Sax's shower scene showed the entire model. Just my humble opinion. How is that different? Codes there...but you didn't see it until it was modded.

Tough situation to unravel...The Oblivion change, however, is complete and utter bullshit. Third party mod. Third party content. I could sneak a penthouse magazine into the movie theatre when I watch "Finding Nemo" but they wouldn't make it x-rated for that. Ugh.

All in all, I do believe Rockstar was reckless, and should have seen it coming. Having said that, though, it might not necessarily be fair. The rating systems aren't fair, though. What Rockstar did, though, is screw things up for other developers. I really feel sorry for the Oblivion guys. It sucks much.

Do you think next generation table tennis is rockstars way of cleaning up their act, or will it have extra content too? Haha!

10:21 PM

 
Anonymous Noel Stephens said...

Yeop... what he said.

John is 100% right on with his stance. You run a mod... your ESRB rating for your game is 100% out the window.

ESRB Ratings should not change... if anything... the ESRB group should be fined for anything they don't catch... that will make them wake up to the reality of the situation.

3:26 PM

 
Anonymous Phoenixan said...

If all ESRB ratings were changed to include 3rd party mods and what people change inside of a game, then they mights as well just give ALL games the M or AO rating.

5:17 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Absolutely man. Look at the Adam mod for Half-Life 1. They made it so you walk into a room and a soldier is getting a handjob. Did ESRB go back and rerate Half-Life 1? No! Because it's nothing more than them having their heads up Hillary Clinton's hairy ass.

6:08 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

On further thought, they will probably read this, go back and look at this mod, and then change Half-Life 1's rating. Those bastards.

6:09 PM

 
Blogger dev_akm said...

The nudity mod issue is a red herring.

It's just a convenient excuse for the ESRB to correct a mistake in the way they rated Oblivion to begin with.

I think the ESRB ratings are retarded for many reasons, but we live in a Puritan society, so it's to be expected I guess. In any case, ESRB ratings are fairly similar to the way movies are rated, so we should all be used to it by now.

The closest analogy would be a movie in which nude scenes were cut before release to gain a PG-13 rating. If some fan got ahold of the cut footage, spliced it back together and released this "unofficial" version of the movie, would the ratings board then go back and change the rating to R? No, they'd consider such a suggestion absurd, and yet that's almost exactly what we're seeing here, assuming the "hidden content/breasts" argument is valid at all.

In reality, Oblivion probably deserved an M rating for many other reasons, some obvious and some less obvious.

The obvious reason is the very large number of mutilated, bloody corpses in the Oblivion gates. Along with the various corpse mashers, etc., the game really is quite grotesque in places. I don't mind this at all and I think it is appropriate for the story, but if I'm in a spot like that in the game I do pause it if my daughter comes into the room because I think it would give her nightmares.

The more subtle reason is the storyline (as I noted earlier). It's a very mature story containing a lot of "sacreligious" themes, much like Morrowind did. To me, this is one of the best aspects of the game. However, most people would classify this sort of thing (assuming they're smart enough to recognize it at all) as a "mature theme".

12:07 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Holy guacamole...

4:59 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, but I have not read all the posts - I just wanted to address a general theme about what people seem to be forgetting.

Through encryption it is possible to lock the content of a game completely, this would be a bad thing. IF porn files were included in an archive, and the archive was encrypted before release then no one - not even your l33t hackers, would be able to get at these files. This would ensure that the game would not be re-rated, indeed it would ensure that people wouldn't be able to make mods for your game at all!

Take your texture files and directory structure, archive everything, encrypt everything and finally you are safe from re-rating... you have lost the ablity for your customers to even replace a texture, but at least your product is safe so you can't be held responsible... I would really not like to see this happen, but I agree with romeoe that this is what will happen unless the trend is reversed. I also agree that producers should not make things worse by opening themselves up to attack by leaving stuff around.

3:53 AM

 
Anonymous olanarchangel said...

I may be wrong, but does the EULA not say that by installing the game and all, you agree not to tamper with the code? If so, then modding the game is a break in the EULA, and does not reflect a legal use of the game. How, then, is it right to rerate a game based on that? I could be wrong, though, this is just a thought I had.

12:57 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fuck you Romero for trashing modders, Bethesda, Rockstar Games, Take2, Jack Thompson, americans more afraid of nudity, politicians, and the media.

12:57 PM

 
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4:45 AM

 
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12:18 AM

 

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